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I recently hosted an evangelical (Dr. Matthew Sleeth) here in Berkeley to talk about the environment. Someone asked him the most important thing that a person could do to stop global warming.
He didn't hesitate: keep the Sabbath.
See you at Second Wind. . .via my bike!
As a committed member of the Second Wind community, I’d also like to thank Greg and Shasta for not giving up on God and for modeling for us all our need for grace and forgiveness. I’m afraid our churches (Adventist and otherwise) often preach the rhetoric of grace freely but find the actual practice of grace much harder.
However, I am also moved to tears by the way my church, the church of my parents, grand-parents and great grand-parents has continued to refuse Greg and Shasta official ministry opportunities. Do my church leaders really feel that I can’t trust a pastor who has publicly sinned and publicly avowed his and her need for grace and forgiveness? For me this increases my trust in their spiritual leadership abilities, not decreases. The way our official church body has responded to Greg and Shasta demonstrates our tendencies toward perfectionism and performance over authenticity and acceptance. We don’t sin less in these environments, we just learn to hide our sins better. This mask of inauthentic interaction is what keeps people from my generation out of regular church participation.
Oddly enough, although Second Wind is not “Adventist” per se (undoubtedly the Nelson’s backgrounds do influence the philosophy), but the welcoming, accepting, and loving community space they’ve created has allowed me to become more comfortable with my heritage religion, more able to wear the Adventist label—but one of my own, not an institutional, creation. This is the magic of intentional acceptance and an overt commitment to nurture and love each person wherever she is on her spiritual path. I think churches everywhere need more of this attitude—I think we’d be amazed at how many post-moderns we were suddenly reaching.
Let’s go beyond a discussion on this blog though (which I thank Marcel and Julius for starting). I’d like to ask my fellow blog-readers to agitate for grace. Often we just sit at our computers and nod in agreement, maybe we mention something to our spouses, but let’s actually do something this time. Let’s make a stand for forgiveness. Let’s acknowledge that we all—pastors included, maybe sometimes especially—are broken and need healing. Let’s ask our church leaders to practice, not just preach, grace. Let’s write our conference leaders and officials and ask them to reinstate Greg and Shasta’s credentials. (Start with Elder Tom Mostert, President of the Pacific Union Conference, P.O. Box 5005, Westlake Village, CA 91359.)
(And, pastors and church leaders out there—this opportunity to agitate for grace practiced not just preached is for you also.)
Who knows what Greg and Shasta would do if this were to happen (and I have to admit, as someone who loves their Second Wind ministry, I really want them to stay just where they are), but it’s unacceptable that we haven’t officially recognized that pastors who’ve made mistakes deserves grace and second chances too. It’s a poor reflection on who we are as a church and what we actually value in our leaders, and by extension, members.
In my experience the most difficult grace to give is the grace I give myself. In the AA model confession truely is a gift. Its lonely living up on a pedestal because ultimately its not true. It has been said that we are only as sick as our secrets. The truth is the SDA church is not a safe place to be a sinner. Its not unique in that characteristic. The truth is that there are few places that are safe to be anything less than perfect, including our own skins.
In my life the revelation that I was not even tellling myself the truth was a gift of tremendous value. There is great freedom in being completely honest with oneself. To thine own self be true is great wisdom.
There is certainly something of great spiritual power that is released when the channel becomes open. When I told myself and others the truth about me I didn't have to be self conscious anymore. I rather enjoy joining the human race and embracing my "imperfections." A God of Grace is certainly willing to embrace all of us. I believe God embraces both the dark and the light. To me that is the only way that Love can transform us. And its difficult to embrace that which we do not admit exists.
The other model tries to cut it out and I believe that restoration preserves and transforms rather than splitting. I believe it is because we have been split that suffering is present, just as pain is the message that disease is present in the body. And just as those cells that have become diseased were once healthy, so I believe there is great potential for new life in all aspects of our being.
Re: Second Wind. I was interested in where your congregants come from? Is there an SDA "base" you worked with, or did you build up the group from scratch, so to speak? How do you promote or recruit, if I may use that word, your fellowship?
Glenn
He encouraged me at WWC
He challenged me in my pastoral ministry in Australia
But now he (and Shasta) inspire me with their incredible story of terrifying honesty, intelligent commentary, and bold trust in God. I pray that I am as transparent and as focused on serving God as these two are, inspite of the obstacles before them.
Write the book Shasta - I'm sure it will be a blessing and a best seller!
Casey Wolverton
Senior Pastor Gold Coast Central Adventist Church
Former Host of SSU
A great tragedy, while at the same time a great story of survival for two people who must have once felt terribly lost - not just in the spiritual sense of the word either - this thing shatters your life completely.
I was formerly a publishing house manager who left the work (and the church) voluntarily as a consequence of a relationship with someone else. I never told my union president - I just left. Being in the mission field I did not want to expose my workers to a situation where they would see their general manager fired or hastily transferred.
One of the greatest challenges to survival is when one finally realises the full enormity of what you have done to your spouse. The damage is often so great that it seems absolutely impossible to ask for forgiveness. To say sorry, yes – but to hope for forgiveness under such circumstances can be almost beyond credibility.
I struggle personally with the thought that forgiveness is often cheapened in the asking (in my own situation). Perhaps this is a contradiction in meaning, however how can one ever ask to be forgiven when not only the hurt, but the suffering and damage will continue in the life of the one whom you have wounded so deeply - when the very fabric of her life and existence is so completely shattered and changed that you have shaped a living hell for her?
When I think of forgiveness, a film comes to mind—Smoke Signals, an independent film that came out of Sundance in the late 90s. The film follows the journey (literally and spiritually) of two young Indian men who go to Phoenix to get the ashes of the one boy’s father (the concept of the phoenix and fire, destruction and rebirth are big themes in the film). The one young man is angry, deeply angry at his father who was a drunkard and left him and his mother when he was young. Ultimately, his spiritual quest is to forgive his father, even though he never asked for it, and even though he is now dead and isn’t around to argue with. What moves me so much in this film is the idea that forgiveness is ultimately for the benefit of us doing the forgiving, not for the one needing forgiveness. I think that’s why all major world religions stress this act as a spiritual discipline.
So, while I applaud the commenter’s honesty about the pain he caused his wife, I’d encourage him to realize that the larger, more complex and more beautiful picture of forgiveness isn’t just about him. Life will wrong us, people will wrong us. Sometimes those people will ask for forgiveness and sometimes they won’t. Our choice to forgive is actually about our spirituality, not theirs.
Shortly before Greg left San Francisco in the fall of 2004, SF Central was infiltrated by some young adult extreme right-wing legalists who managed to destroy the young adult ministry that their leadership, under Greg's mentoring, had managed to develop and begin thriving. At the same time, they managed to destroy the Adventist Gay/Lesbian Ministry that had been thriving for several years. They totally believed that God had "called" them to "purge" SF Central church of such "iniquity."
My partner, who once was even considered by a Nominating Committee to be a church Elder, is now not allowed to hold church office, to teach a Sabbath school class, to work with children, or to say anything at all from the pulpit, even an announcement. Her only visibility is with her back to the congregation as she directs the church choir and as she plays the organ for church. All of our gay/lesbian Adventist friends have disappeared.
Still, we continue to attend Central (though I do visit Second Wind as often as I can). We continue to go to church board meetings and speak up when we feel there is a need, even though we will never have a vote. A board vote is not necessary. It is only necessary to speak up and speak out for those whose voices have been silenced by the ignorance and bigotry of others.
Fortunately, many of our gay friends do go to Second Wind where sexual orientation is never an issue. It is only important to connect with God and fellow human beings in a wonderful spiritual community!
I have to admit that I have been a silent reader of this blog for quite some time now, and this is my first comment on this blog. So why do I chose this article?
1. I am SW Michigan based SDA who graduated AU and was present during the net 98 production. I well remember Shasta and her unbridled enthusiasm.
2. I am distinctly aware of the turmoil that is present within the Adventist church. Michigan is fertile ground for the clash between legalism and grace-based living.
3. Church (i.e. the church service) that is stereotypically played out does not in any way bring me closer to God. I am much more into alternative worship methods and inductive study.
4. That is why I believed so much in Anchor Point. It was a fresh perspective (divinely so in my opinion) and an opportunity for God's grace to be shown in amazing ways.
5. That is why news of the affair (that I had feared would happen, and prayed that wouldn't) broke me. I have seen how Satan works. I come from a home that was split by divorce due to infidelity. I know and I understand.
And I was angered and hurt.
Angered that the conference would so carelessly put two people who were not married into a situation that would provide fertile ground for what took place.
Angered that Greg and Shasta did not stop at the first sign of attraction.
Angered at their treatment by the SDA leadership. The SDA leadership treated them like lepers. That was wrong. (What about the witness of Jesus, "Neither do I condemn you...go and sin no more.")
Years have passed since that debacle. I had hoped for reconciliations, and the power for forgiveness to take root - an evidence of God's tender mercy to all of us who fall. But then I visited this blog site and was floored at what I saw and read. Greg and Shasta married? It's as if the affair has been sealed with God's approval. And the way that it was written almost seems like a collective effort by this blog and Greg & Shasta to "stick it to the man". A "take that" approach.
I would have been perfectly fine with them getting together and quietly living out their lives together. But I fear that they may become a stumbling block for those whose morals are under attack from the very source of evil that crucified our Lord and Saviour. Paul admonishes us to be careful with our freedoms. Grace has not come cheap. Let us who wish to change the Adventist church for the better make sure we do not cheapen Grace.
Forgiveness is key.
Love is utterly necessary.
And so is obedience.
There were two other couples with an Adventist background that craved being a part of a missional group where they could invite some of their friends to explore God. The six of us formed a core team and met for several months in prayer, Bible study and discussion regarding our values and vision. A little over a year ago we simply “opened” the group up and began inviting those we thought might be interested. We’ve occasionally posted certain discussion series online and or hung a few posters in stores, but it’s been mostly word of mouth. We’re getting to a place now where we might start doing some more intentional marketing as funds become available, but it’s been encouraging to see how many guests are willing to bring other guests, etc. Does that answer the question? If not—feel free to email us!
I remember the ripple effect that went through churches two years ago when they got married. I've never understood it. Why is it a problem that they are married?
Do we have an unwritten rule that if you've done wrong you can't be happy again? Does forgiveness mean that the forgiven has to act according our standards of proper contriteness?
God forgives us. Maybe the hardest part is accepting that forgiveness. And allowing others to accept their own forgiveness and find a fullness of life again.
You said, "And the way that it was written almost seems like a collective effort by this blog and Greg & Shasta to "stick it to the man". A "take that" approach."
The interview was initiated by me and Julius only, and graciously accepted by the Nelsons after much thought and prayer. Its primary intent was to report their side of the story, to inform and to state fact. I think you will find that there is much obedience (repentance, surrender, worship, renewal) in their story. Thanks for your comment.
Anonymous commenters who use the feature for convenience are encouraged to leave a signature at the bottom. :-)
Marcel, Blog Moderator
Glenn
As I've read through the comments here, I've noted a sense of alienation or even a hint of resentment toward the SDA Institution for their insistence on getting rid of pastors who come forward and admit their mistakes. A few thoughts:
1. A friend of mine was a young pastor who came to the church confessing problems with pornography and asking for help. He was sacked, and the story was made public, very similar to what happened with Greg and Shasta.
2. I follow professional cycling. Several pro riders have been implicated in a doping ring, and some have come clean. The UCI, cycling's governing body, has made it clear that any dopers will be given the maximum punishment for the first offense - two-year ban, plus two additional years ban from top-tier participation.
3. I also wonder whether such absolute and uncompromising punitive measures against SDA workers (as with pro cyclists) scares others into silence. I wonder how many other pastors and cyclists might come clean and try to help "clean up the sport" if there was more willingness to grant amnesty and to work with people who confess.
4. The Adventist church may be squelching one of the most important practices of the spiritual life - that of confessing - by making it unsafe for those who do!
Give me a restored sinner anyday to the contrived poster children of Adventism that Greg and Shasta used to be.
Welcome home, Greg and Shasta!
I appreciate the pain you are going through and what pain you have caused your families. I recognize that you have admitted that mistakes were made and honestly feel bad for you.
But what gnaws at me, and perhaps this is my problem, not yours, is that it seems like the affair was so accidental - like there was no way to avoid it. There is very little in the way of taking responsibility and focusing energies to prevent similar pain in other families. In reality, it had to be a choice that you made at some level.
It seems that the majority of the anger is going out toward a conference. What should they have done? Kept you on, ministering to people while doing the opposite of what you preached? If that happened, people would accuse the conference of being hypocritical.
There was simply no way that you could continue in the employ of the church in any credible way. And the church owed its members an explanation of what happened - they may have blown it in how they did it, but they need to explain that this type of behavior is not tolerated.
You've confessed, but the majority of the confession seems to be not about the initial sin itself, but about how bad you felt during the response.
I know this may not be how you meant it, and that you might be very offended and angry at me for mentioning it in these terms, but that is how it appears.
Sorry, but I'm not buying it. (Note, being that this is not a glowing review of your efforts, I don't expect this to be published on the site.)
Frank
My question is when is a pastor able to come back? Can a pastor come back? It's been what--five, six years? Can we follow some sort of rehabilitation program for pastors who have seriously messed up? Do we as congregation members accept pastors who have asked for forgiveness and taken steps to accept accountability for their actions?
I agree with you that they definitely needed to be fired at the time (and I think they agree too), but I'm also with Pleides now that so much time has passed: "Give me a restored sinner anyday to the contrived poster children of Adventism that Greg and Shasta used to be."
Wow! I just finished reading the article and I am so excited that you both found a place where you can minister. I'm glad that this whole mess didn't cause you to lose your faith. I'm impressed that you didn't just turn your back on the Adventist church!
I was a student at Union when Greg was there (96-98). I enjoyed his sermons and the spritual message and flavor of the church. I will admit that when I heard of the affair, I was shocked...and, as hard as I may have tried otherwise, somewhat judgemental. I know, it's none of my business, but I couldn't help being curious.
I still struggle with the judgemental, legalistic side of things. I think, unfortunately, it is part of the "born and bred" Adventist in me. God and I are working on being more accepting, but I still seem to have that little "EGW," or whatever Adventist image you want, whispering in my ear.
I'm also sorry for the treatment you received from our church. Adventist politics are so nasty. my family has been quite burned by it. It hurts me every time someone gets hurt by the church.
I was surprised to see that you had married. But truely, I'm glad that good has come from this mess. I pray that God continues to use you both in the awesome ministry that you are in. We need more of that in this world.
God Bless!
Rachel
I’ve heard two main arguments for punishing sin—one is to help them learn the lesson/to teach them/ to redeem them. In this case that fact that Greg and Shasta initiated confession shows that they already felt convicted and knew their failure. The second reason I’ve heard is that we have to send messages to everyone else by showing punishment to those who are high profile. Unfortunately it is not from lack of knowing the consequences that most of us don't live up to who we want to be. My guess is that even Greg and Shasta knew how much damage was being done by their choices, they no doubt knew the risks of coming clean.
Is it really education of punishments that we need more of in this church or could it be that what could really transform us all would be a little more humility that we all fail and a lot more grace? Maybe the message I would want to send is different than the one church leaders want to send? Maybe it’s important to some to scare everyone into trying to be perfect? I don’t know… I’d rather send the message to our entire church that people mess up, we all fall short of the glory of God, but that the value of being Christian is we have the peace of knowing our mistakes don’t define us and that we have a community that surrounds us that will love us through our healing and growth. We should only be firing and ostracizing if we want to communicate that leaders and members have to be perfect to be a part of our church. Even Peter, after he denied Christ, was immediately called to “feed the sheep.”
This doesn’t mean we look the other way with sin or that we sweep it under the rug. Rather it means we need to take it seriously, work toward recovery, build safe communities and find appropriate ways for people to serve. I think it’s sad that we’d rather push people out of helping spread the Gospel rather than doing everything we can to equip them as they try to reveal a God that becomes even more real to them after the experince they have endured.
Most of those who support rehiring them have a grudge against the denomination that's more doctrinal than anything else, so maybe it would be best for them to start their own church.
The fact is, they violated core principles of trust, and if they are easily rehired, they will leave an indelible print on young minds, and will teach others that they can do the same thing and get away with it.
Frank
I have been blessed to experience the forgiveness of the Adventist Church through the love of the people in it. I found myself pregnant two months before my husband's and my wedding, and though there may have been people in our little country church who judged us and talked about our failing behind our backs, I never knew about it. The people who mattered to us treated us with the same love and respect as they always had and continued to allow us to help in the children's Sabbath School even after we told them what we had done.
I didn't feel at all arrogant because of their acceptance of me or their faith in me -- it made me feel incredibly humbled and honored that God could still use me and my fellow church members would still accept me even though they knew the truth about me.
I've found that some people have a hard time with confession. When I confessed, others did not always see the pain, the shame, the agony, that failing God and myself brought me. Some thought I was saying that having premarital sex was alright. I was not. In being honest about my failings, I was trying to warn others not to make the same mistakes I did. I think I can hear similar pain through your confession.
I understand all too well being in a situation where my conscience knew that what I was doing was wrong, and yet I couldn't figure out how to muster up the strength to quit doing it. I admire you for being proactive enough to seek help outside yourselves, something I was not brave enough to do before I found myself pregnant.
And as to ministering. I still can't believe that God is willing to forgive someone as sinful as myself and to fill me with His Spirit and to use me to bless the people He loves. When one sins in an obvious way, such as through premarital sex, adultery, or other obvious behaviors that God does not condone, it is easier to admit that one is a sinner in definite need of God's forgiveness. Even through I grew up in a Christian home, I have had problems with the sins of selfishness and pride all my life, but it wasn't until I got pregnant before my wedding that I was able to see and admit that I am a sinner in desperate need of God's love and grace.
I have been blessed by your honesty. I wondered what had happened when we no longer heard anything about AnchorPointe or Greg Nelson and Shasta Burr working together to reach people in Seattle. I did hear that there had been an affair, but I missed the uproar, and I am grateful. It is a shame that we humans have a tendency to put people up on a pedestal, and when they then show their humanity, we're shattered, and we at times attack them rather than ministering to them. Please forgive us for our un-Christlikeness!
I am glad to hear that God is bringing you healing, just as He is me (even 11 years later), and that the bitterness of this experience has not turned you away from a close walk with Him nor from serving Him in whatever capacity He opens to you.
I see your current ministry in somewhat the same light as when Paul and Barnabas had their falling-out over Mark's place in ministry. God was able to take what seemed like a division and bring more people into His family because of it. Regardless of what the organized church does or does not say, I see that you are Adventists who are taking seriously Jesus' commission to preach the Good News to the whole world so that He can return. And God is using you to make God-friends of those who might not otherwise give Him a chance.
My prayers are with you, that our Father will continue to bless your ministry, your marriage, your healing and all whose lives you impact for Him. Praise be to our God who uses broken people!
Your sister in Christ,
Kari
One anonymous commenter said that he felt to ask for forgiveness would be cheapened in the asking. I can't answer that and I don't know. But I hear you, as someone who has been deeply hurt and am sympathetic. There isn't any pat answer, and if there were I feel it would be too formulaic to be a working solution. But I think your post was beautiful and your heart is loving. Love be with you and your wife.
The other individual who responded to you mentioned Sherman Alexie's "Smoke Signals." Here is a youtube video of the scene that individual was speaking of. You might also try the book, "Flight."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QutfN2wb1wc
I also wanted to respond to your comment:
"The fact is, they violated core principles of trust, and if they are easily rehired, they will leave an indelible print on young minds, and will teach others that they can do the same thing and get away with it."
I think this conversation bears witness that Greg and Shasta didn't "get away" with "it"--whatever that actually means. If that had been there intention, I'm sure they would have just ended things quietly rather than holding themselves accountable by confessing.
The only indelible impression left on my mind from this experience is that we all need grace, and, probably most profoundly and most potently, God isn't through with us when our time comes to truly call on grace.
There is a lot of hypocrisy in the Church reagarding moral issues, but it is on the other hand difficult to balance all the feelings, principles and facts involved in establishing trust and credibility. I believe God can use Second Wind as another of his arms to reach and convert lost people. Hence the minstry there is just as important as that of the Church. I would, however, be very encouraged if the SDA Church somehow could be able to recognize this work and support it as a supporting minsitry or something like they do with a lot of more questionable projects on the right fringe of the church landscape.
Praise God for His mercy and grace.
Anonymous said...
The anonymous SW Michigan-based SDA seems very thoughtful but is still ultimately most upset that Greg and Shasta ended up married (it's also what Shasta says in the interview is what is most difficult for them--that their decision to get married after several years apart and trying individually to reconcile with their spouses is so misunderstood).
I guess I missed the part of the interview where Greg and Shasta describe trying individually to reconcile with their spouses....I would like to hear more about that side of the story from Greg and Shasta....I think that is the part of story that needs to be told.
Thanks,
Marcel
- "It is this false kind of holiness that sets up boundaries for one’s own life and then demands them of others. It looks like saintliness, but it is the pursuit of purity rather than the pursuit of God."
- "I am not trying to make excuses for sin. Sin is no small matter. It damages relationships, both with the community of faith and with God. The issue is not whether we sin, but whether we repent of and confess our sin. In other words, the issue is how I respond to my sin. Do I hide it in the dark (thus perpetuating the sin) or do I bring the miserable thing into the light in order to be done with it?
When we adorn ourselves in fine clothes to hide the sin, when we dress ourselves up as holy, we lie—and we call God a liar. Because, beloved, we are sinners. We cry out for mercy—that is what sinners do. And when we cry out for mercy, we are heard and answered faithfully. And it is in God’s faithfulness that the joy and peace of confession are realized."
Not only is this a personal challenge, it is a corporate challenge as well: Do we punish people for confessing and allowing their brokenness to be known--especially those in leadership roles like pastors? Or do we acknowledge that even leaders, possibly especially leaders, will sin and need God's grace?
If we aren't careful, our actions will speak much louder than our rhetoric, and we will end up teaching that the best policy is to hide sin, stuff it away, tuck it under the bed far from the light.
My opinion is that our biggest problem in Adventism, and in the larger Christian community is our Satan-inspired need to judge others.
Take that trait out of the picture, and many of the problems and concerns mentioned throughout this blog section disappear.
Do we think that our pastors are not sinners? Do we think, somehow, that because we don't participate in infidelity, homosexuality, or smoking that we are somehow better prepared to meet our maker in our last day?
Probably! And that scares me.
In recent months I have been impressed that my individual spiritual goal is to understand the true nature of sin, how it affects my Savior, and how it affects me and those with whom I am in contact.
And then how to hate sin (the separation from God's presence) as much as the Savior did. Hopefully, this makes me long to be at His side, rather than in this sin-filled earth.
Only then will I be able to say, "Lo, this is MY God, and He will save me."
The overwhelming understanding that I have gotten while reading this section is that Greg and Shasta do indeed understand sin, their sin, and the awful consequences it has had in their life and the lives around them. It's not the jobs, folks, it's the relationships!
I, too, am sorry that our church was not more circumspect in handling the issue. Perhaps the publicity was a knee-jerk reaction to the often said complaint that the church loves to sweep sin under the rug, and pretend it never happened.
I applaud your efforts to encircle those who feel excluded as a result of the church's need for jodgment. Bring them in with arms of love reaching for them. Allow them to feel His forgiveness, and yours. Help them to see the beams of the warmth of His light, shining on their face, once again.
Dave.
I often saw Shasta and her first husband at different assignments, churches and events. I was newly married and Michigan was the perfect place to nurture a new marriage with its long, snowy, cold winters we were forced inside to talk, be together and bond.
We started our ministry the same year Shasta did. We loved it there. We felt like we were doing just what we had dreamed of, and were living in God's Call. We left to pursue our education further.
It was only when we left that we realized just what a toll the ministry had on our relationship. It was as if it had gone through a beating. It was impossible for us to recognize this while we were living it. But when we left and it was just us two again with no one to focus on we realized just how much we had grown apart.
There is no safe, non-judgmental place for young ministers and their families to question, explore and learn. We look back and cannot believe the way we lived. We would walk into a restaurant and before we started speaking we would look around to see if there was anyone we recognized, then we would speak just above a whisper. We would drive 20 miles to see a movie at the theater. We never spoke of our political views, in fact any view outside of church issues had to be muted. Church members had all access to us, calling us at all times of the day, even coming over unannounced interupting dinner, family visits, sex. Intimacy is what so many pastors and their families are looking for and lose. There is no class at the seminary that taught us limits, boundaries and how to nurture the most important earthly relationship. The conference was so excited about our successful ministry it was easy to just focus on our successes. Intimacy in all relationships was lost.
I now understand that I was angry at Shasta because she is a girl that was raised with similar beliefs, morals, values and ethics as me. She was on the same path as myself. When I looked at her I could have been looking in a mirror. And she failed. It made me realize just how vulnerable I am. It is hard to admit, but had we not left I could have had the very same outcome as she.
It's good to see her happy. Her testimony is powerful and opens up the discussion for pastors and their families to evaluate what it is that we have left out. Most importantly it is amazing to see her living in God's Grace. Maybe her calling is much bigger and different than she ever imagined
I think you gave up a valuable chance to minister to fallen people, but as a couple with the spouse you cheated on....that would have been powerful.
I noticed also that you feel that people are judging your level of repentance....some of us tried to talk to you during that time....you shut us out, so I offer no sympathy for you in that regard.
At this point in time, I don't see that you have any special rights to minister, any more than other lay members of the church.
The moment you decided to have sex outside of you marriage and yes this was a conscious decision you both made, you gave up the right to do the thing that you claim was so important to you, pastor to God's people.
I know you are both forgiven, as am I for all my sins, but I know I must live with my consequences, can you when those consequences mean loss in income and job and TRUST?
I would love to hear your comments on my thoughts....
- They publicly lost their jobs.
- They lost their marriages.
- Their actions hurt a lot of people (including me), and they have had to deal with all kinds of relational fallout.
I'm sure they could add more to the list. They aren't avoiding the consequences of their actions; rather, it seems that they haven't missed a minute.
Would some public self-flagellation satisfy everyone who thinks they haven't suffered enough? Will they ever suffer enough? Should we crucify them just to make sure?
In this society, if you drive drunk, you lose your license and aren't allowed to drive again or go to prison, even if you are sorry.
If you steal, you may pay restitution, go to prison and even if you are sorry, you may not get to be in a position that allows you to work with money.
These are consequences.
Causing those you pastor to lose their ability to TRUST...that should have a consequence also.
Did they lose their marriages or walk away from their marriages? Did their spouses want to stay married and work through the consequences of their sin?
I think the opportunity to make beauty from ashes was disregarded when they married each other and in the spirit of honesty, I thought it would be important for everyone reading this to know who ended the marriages, lets get the whole truth out.
Does this constitute public flagellation, I think not. I just want the honesty that is proclaimed and they are being applauded for to be complete.
It seems that a great deal hinges on what we think a pastor's role is. What is this "trust" that keeps getting bandied about and that this commenter seems to think cannot be restored. Do we trust a pastor to not sin--small or big sins (since we seem to have a hierarchy and sexual sins are at the very top)? If so, that is an unreasonable trust, and we're simply setting him or her up for failure. Do we trust a pastor to admit his/her mistakes and be accountable? Well, we would ideally say "yes," but our public treatment of people like Greg and Shasta sends a far different signal: it is much better and safer to hide your big sins or you're out for good. This unspoken mantra seems to breed very unhealthy results with pastors preaching one thing and having to do another if they want to keep preaching at all.
What do we do with the idea of a calling from God? Many people have spoken about how Greg and/or Shasta ministered powerfully to them at others times in life, pre-affair. Does this sin (and they readily admit it was indeed a sin and a big one), mean that God's call has been rescinded?
I had the privilege to be at a wedding that Greg and Shasta performed last weekend. It was one of the most profound, meaningful, and beautiful ceremonies I've ever witnessed. It reminded me of the power that comes with vulnerability and authenticity--risk too, but also a deep, life-affirming power. Seeing the Nelsons in this role again reminded me of their calling from God--they clearly were meant to be ministers. Where do we get our authority to try to curtail this? It seems like our best instruction book, the Bible, is full of examples of people called by God who sinned, sometimes boldly, but were still called by God at the end of the day. I find myself better able to be ministered to by pastors like the Nelsons who admit and know firsthand the need for grace and forgiveness.
I’m also curious why it matters who ended Greg and Shasta’s first marriages. First, it truly isn’t our business, and I respect Greg and Shasta for not going into the possibly juicy, but undoubtedly painful details about their former spouses. They admitted that they hurt them deeply and will always respect them as well as being sorry for the pain they caused. This interview was about Greg and Shasta and their ministry though, and the lives and feelings of other parties should not be spoken about without the consent of those parties. But besides the issues of privacy and consent, marriages are complex, complicated, and difficult. The majority of Americans (both inside and outside the church) fail at marriage. I know it’s ideal to think pastors are above humanity and the statistics that apply to the rest of us, but again those are unrealistic standards that lead to unhealthy examples. Should being human and “normal” keep someone from living out God’s calling in their life? I hope not, and I appreciate the Nelsons for leading through this very public example.
The Power of Your Love
Lord, I come to You, let my heart be changed, renewed;
Flowing from the grace that I've found in You;
And Lord, I've come to know, the weaknesses I see in me,
Will be stripped away by the pow'r of Your love.
Chorus:
Hold me close, let Your love surround me; bring me near, draw me to Your side;
And as I wait, I'll rise up like the eagle,
And I will soar with You, Your Spirit leads me on in the pow'r of Your love.
Lord, unveil my eyes, let me see You face to face,
The knowledge of Your love as You live in me.
Lord, renew my mind, as Your will unfolds in my life,
In living ev'ry day in the pow'r of Your love.
Because Abba loves Greg and Shasta so much, he sent his Son to be that which we can't be. I know the power of forgiveness, and we are all living testimonies in Christ.
God Speed,
Daniel Brock, Follower of Christ.
Cheerio,
Seth
I am an Adventist Pastor and I know that God has a great plan for your future. We know that it is possible for any human to live in the flesh, and err. But, let the past be in the past. 2 Cor. 5:17. Let not the foolishness of others discourage you, or push you to extremism. If you live by, and teach the principles of the Word, God definitely has a place for you in His Adventist movement. Yet, if he lead you to another work, may His peace and joy be upon you.
Pastor Dan
I think you are in a perfect position to advice young married couples, especially ministers how easy it is to fall in this regard and perhaps how to avoid such situations. I hope the church organisation has learnt from your example, I'm sure there are many other Pastors with marital problems all swept under the carpet of 'saving the church's face'. The sooner we recognise that we are all sinners with dirty linen the less judgemental we will be with each other and the more loving we will show, which is what Jesus expects in the first place.
I'll own my bothersome habit of moving from life/community to books and say that I see commonalities here with "Is That Really You, God?" by Loren Cunningham--mission, community, failure, confession, recalled to ministry, service to humanity, etc.
Finally, Matthew Sleeth is all that (www.servegodsavetheplanet.org).
Donald's sermon will be online for a couple months. It can be downloaded for free at www.marshill.org/teaching/index.php.
If IMACOWGIRL is still on here... I'd be happy to respond to her question, though it needs some clarification. Are you asking us whether we approve of affairs? That would be important for me to answer with a resounding no, but please feel free to explain what you mean. And I agree with you that the conference office had the right to fire us-- no qualms there-- I hope you didn't read otherwise in our interview? But all of our losses, whether we deserved them or not, still leave their pain.
And for those of you who shared your own personal experiences on this blog or in email to us... thank you for your honesty. May we all keep growing from our passion to reflect Jesus in whatever ways we can. Unfortunately some of us have to do that with cracks in our pots, but we'll do it nonetheless. :)
Happy Sabbath.
To the people who said those in support of them are those that have issues with the Adventist Church. I don't see it as that. I see it as we are people who have issues with conditional forgiveness. You are forgiven completely only if we don't think it is so bad. God said no sin is worse than another. So why do we take it upon ourselves to choose which ones are? Is it ok for a Pastor to secretly covet another's wife as long as he doesn't tell, and he can keep his job, while another makes the mistake and gets into a relationship with someone else and he comes clean and so he is kicked to the curb?
Frank stated that how it will affect the young minds to see that they made a mistake and then got away with it. No it shows those young people that if they make mistakes they don't need to hide, but can come clean and they will still be loved. And once they come clean and ask forgiveness, it will be as if it never happened. The person who said it can be forgiven but not forgotten...seriously, did Greg and Shasta do anything to you personally that you should be holding this grudge. They have asked God, their former spouses and the members of the church for forgiveness. God said that is all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and it shall be given. What more do you need them to do?
How long should they not be able to preach? The honest truth? The Adventist Church unless by a miracle of God, will never re-employ them. And it isn't because the church members will feel uncomfortable, it is because they are, it may reflect upon them. Because a church has a voice in the hire, and if they meet Greg and Shasta and know their story and are comfortable having them as leaders, then they should be able to. If God covers our sin white as snow, why must we feel like we need to keep shoveling that snow so it keeps showing? I would rather have a pastor who has screwed up, admitted, spent time with God working on the closeness they have with Him, but who has a fire for God and a passion like no other, than a pastor who does it because he thinks he was called, but you can tell there is no zest, no pure love of what he is doing. If they will hire a pastor who before he became adventist did the same things, how is it any different, just because he was already Adventist?
And to the cowgirl whatever person. It is true if you as a nurse did something to hurt or possibly end a life of someone you may never work as a nurse again. But isn't that a little different here? That is an extreme example. Or Marion Jones, she took drugs to push her further ahead, how does the Nelson's situation have anything to do with that? They made a mistake, they lost their job, does that mean they should forever lose their job? If you are a manager of a store and get fired, does that mean you should never be able to be a manager at another store? People learn from their mistakes.
And to those who are angry that they got married.....seriously? You would rather have had this happen and two marriages end, for nothing? They went back to their marriages, and they didn't work, they didn't see each other for two years, and yet they are married. Maybe that means, that it isn't such a horrible thing. If you are actually ever around them in person, and not just reading about them, you can see the love that they have for each other. You can see the love that they have for God. We need to quit condemning those who make a mistake and love them instead. you want to keep young people in the church, show them we love them even with their mistakes, show them that one bad step doesn't cause them to be shunned.
And just for the record, I don't know Greg and Shasta personally, so this isn't like a friend sticking up for them. I am just tired of all of this judgmental crap. Until you are in their shoes, in their situation, quit judging them and just love them instead, like Christ does with all of us.
Maranda W.
I too have experienced much pain as a result of taking my eyes off of Jesus and seeking comfort in the arms another. I have felt the pain of divorce. I have felt the shame of knowing that I let God down. I will always be the objects of resentment to some and a constant object lesson of what succumbing to the carnal desires of a sinful and deceptive heart will bring.
I guess I said all that to say i understand.
I'm not writing to condemn you or applaud but only to say i undersatnd and i love you both. I know you both still hurt at times. I do. But the knowledge that God can restore us and even use us after such a monumental failure is a testament not to us but to the Creator's wonderous power and love.
My only admonition.... Please fight the temptation to present a message to some that it doesn't matter what you do or how you live ultimately. God has set impossible standards for us to reach... but the miracle is that He specializes in the impossible and if we would allow Him to take control of our live He will give us power to be living miracles.
i understand that there are legalist in the SDA church. But neither liberalism or legalism is the answer. with either there is no balance... God wants us to trust Him enough to know that the guiding principles that He has created for our lives are to keep us from the pain of sin. Nothing has changed since Eden. But at the same time a loving Christlike spirit is our duty and without it we cannot ever truly be followers of Christ.
All these buzz words, strategic terminology, inductive vs. reductive, politically correct stuff makes the gospel way more complicated than it has to be. At the heart of it all it is really simple.
Lift up Christ with power. Teach the people what God is really about and who He really is. Show all His principals in the light of the cross and much power will be in your work. And I don't think that it is a stretch to say that many on this blog are probably not crazy about the SOP. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is so much beautiful light and truth revealed there. I share quotes with hurting nonSDA souls all of the time and they are blown away by the beauty and depth of the words I share.
as a matter of fact... I'm not sure if you are familar with this quote but I'd like to share it with you. It has brought me comfort on many tear filled nights:
He is watching over you, trembling child of God. Are you tempted? He will deliver. Are you weak? He will strengthen. Are you ignorant? He will enlighten. Are you wounded? He will heal. The Lord "telleth the number of the stars;" and yet "He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds." Psalm 147:4, 3.
Whatever your anxieties and trials, spread out your case before the Lord. Your spirit will be braced for endurance. The way will be open for you to disentangle yourself from embarrassment and difficulty. The weaker and more helpless you know yourself to be, the stronger will you become in His strength. The heavier your burdens, the more blessed the rest in casting them upon your Burden Bearer.
Circumstances may separate friends; the restless waters of the wide sea may roll between us and them. But no circumstances, no distance, can separate us from the Saviour. Wherever we may be, He is at our right hand, to support, maintain, uphold, and cheer. Greater than the love of a mother for her child is Christ's love for His redeemed. It is our privilege to rest in His love, to say, "I will trust Him; for He gave His life for me."
Human love may change, but Christ's love knows no change. When we cry to Him for help, His hand is stretched out to save...."
I pray that we can one day meet in Heaven and talk about how God was able to salvage our broken lives and make them a testament to the power and love of our Creator.
Love you both...
your brother in Christ,
M
I'm trying not to be judgemental Maranda. Our jobs here on earth have disqualifiers though. I don't think my statment was at all extreme. God doesn't want us to suffer great remorses as His children here. That's what the 10 Commandents are for...to protect us from mistakes that really take a toll on our lives here on earth...that get in the way of our success. That's why they are Commandments...not to give us parameters to judge, but to keep us happy. Of course Greg and Shasta can/have been forgiven, but they have had a big impact on each other and many others. I know they hurt from that and I'm sorry for that for them truly. It concerns me the angle that they sometimes seem to take as victims from the SDA organization. They did something that merited a measured reaction. It wasn't a setup or an attack against them. It was cause and effect. I doubt the Conference wanted to lose them from their workforce. They are both outstanding speakers.
Thanks for the chat-back.
I agree there was action and consequence. But at the same time, they are a bit of a victim. How long do you punish someone for a mistake that they did? And the affect they have on others, they have been there, they have walked away from their mistake, so they can actually counsel people more than I can, who has never had that to deal with. Some of our greatest leaders come from a shady background. Our church has a tendency to scarlet letter people once they make a mistake, even if they have learned from it and moved on. They feel that if their mistake is public they should not be leaders, while there are others who are doing far worse, but hiding it and lying about it. I would rather have people who have made a mistake and admit it be a leader than those who pretend to do nothing wrong but are black on the inside. When someone has a passion for God and to do His work, who are we to stand in the way? Just a question, have you ever heard either of them speak? Anyway, been nice chatting. The greatest things about these sites is that we are entitled to our own opinion and I like that. So even if I don't necessarily agree with you on all points, I still respect that it is your own personal opinion. Have a great day.
Maranda
We in fact seriously considered not telling them so that they wouldn’t have had to make those decisions. We considered an alternative plan that would have separated the couples and saved the ministry in Seattle. But when it came down to it, we chose to confess our private sin to them, wanting to include them in that healing process. We very much recognize the pain our confession had on the conference officers, both personally and to them collectively.
When a pastor admits failure there are at least two decisions that have to be made by the conference/union office. One is choosing what the response will be (and there are multiple options as I can attest that there are many pastors/conference officials still in their positions after their own affairs) and the second is how to carry that decision out. We could write an entire thesis paper on the latter (this isn’t the best forum for those ideas), but suffice it to say that we’d want to do everything we could to ensure healing—for the individual, the couple, the local congregation, the affected community and for the church at large. In the right context we’d be enthusiastic to contribute to a conversation not just in how to respond in the aftermath of these situations, but also how to help journey with pastors in ways that can help prevent them.
The truth is that we would have done some significant things differently, but with that said we do believe God brings good from all things. While we each died a thousand deaths having our sin emailed and forwarded out to the world in press releases-- the benefit in hindsight is that we can talk about it publicly now. I remember one old man walking out of church in Seattle because he didn’t feel “good enough” to be there. I tried to tell him that he didn’t have to be “good enough” and that none of us were either. But he didn’t believe me. He looked at me and saw the outside “good girl” only and made his comparisons and conclusions. Had I whispered my sins to him perhaps he would have believed me that I knew a thing or two about not deserving to be there, but still being used by a God of grace despite my own limitations? I wished I could have honestly told him my own need of grace. I realized in that moment that preaching grace isn’t nearly as effective as modeling my own receiving of it. My desire of it. My need of it. And my gift of it.
So now we can do that. A blessing in disguise. ☺
We allow athletes to compete again after an agreed time period. This is where the analogy breaks down because athletic prowess is so dependent on age. Luckily, wisdom, judgment, and the ability to model grace as both the recipient and the giver increases with age, which is why pastors/fellow journeyers like Greg and Shasta are still valuable, possibly even more valuable, now.
Greg was clearly in a position of superiority in the relationship - Shasta was not only years younger, but his associate pastor in Seattle. She looked to him for guidance and mentoring. That relationship is akin, in many ways, to a teacher and student. That's enormous psychological power to wield over someone, and it prevents a connection from ever being established on a truly equal plane of understanding. Too much admiration for an established role model is involved for a person to objectively discern their true feelings.
Marriage doesn't change the inherent abusive structure of that situation - it merely codifies it.
To roughly paraphrase Williamson again: Forgiving doesn't just free the "forgiven" from our condemnation, it frees us as well--that's the miracle of forgiveness
And--as a friend of the Nelsons, I have to say that it doesn't seem like you know them at all, or you'd understand why I laughed (and then got a tad offended) by your insinuations. You can rest assured that their marriage is certainly not a "codification" of anything abusive. While they'd be the first to admit they sinned in the past towards themselves and others, they are now examples to me often of how to live out the acceptance and the promise of God's grace. We forget that it's also a spiritual discipline to accept forgiveness--that too is an extremely challenging and vulnerable process that takes a courage and faith in God's promises.
I have met the Nelsons and been in one of their workshops, and you don't even get any other feeling that they they work side by side. no one else is in charge. Many times people fall in love where one is in a more of a leadership position, it doesn't mean that they take advantage of someone. And the age difference, really is that even a point to bring up. In this day and age where 45 year old women are marrying 25 year old men and vice versa. When you watch them present the work they do, you not only see the love that they have for their work but also for each other.
The Bible says that we should judge not lest we be judged and it seems there are a lot of people out here judging them. Have any of you walked in their shoes? Has anyone seen what they have seen, felt what the have felt, and loved their Christ like they have loved? No. No one has the same experience, so who are we to say they are any worse than our little lies, or our anger, or any other sin which is no more greater or lesser.
Yes God is merciful but we forget his justice. I know this from experience what goes around comes around. The consequences of your actions will fill your lives unless you have changed your affiliation and now serves the great deceiver. The bible is filled with examples for us and he said "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:12-14
Everyone in this blog said something relevent and spiritual. You, however, spewed disgusting heresies and even coveted Shasta in everyone's face. I'm just so grossed out, and creeped out, that you are even a pastor.