DISQUS

Tony Zbaraschuk · 2 months ago

When this sort of thing comes up, I am always reminded of Mark the farmer in Chesterton's _Ballad of the White Horse_:

His faith was found in the hard ground
Of doubt and reason and falsehood found
Where no faith else could grow

gwalter · 2 months ago

Nice quote Tony - thanks!

Ellamae · 2 months ago

I agree with Steve. One becomes narrow in their thinking without reading other opinions. Steve's response is to a writer who thinks we could be led astray by reading religious material. The writer says:
"There is only one religious book that we should read, the Bible—God's Word...."

However, the OT Bible itself has turned people away from its God in this age. In it God supposedly commands His people to kill everyone in one village. In others, for what appears to be a small misdemeanor, one is to be killed. One can't always read only the Bible. Without understanding the primitive nature of people just released from slavery, we can't begin to see a merciful God in some of the OT. Most people--even intelligent or especially intelligent people--won't get this. The OT has given much fuel for atheism over the years. In fact, I can't think of any other literature that does more damage to belief than the OT.
Awaiting your responses.

gwalter · 2 months ago

@Ellamae, it isn't the Old Testament itself that drives people away, or hurts their faith - although we are told that the Gospel is a "stumbling block" and is "offensive" to the unbeliever.

However, it is my observation that people have not been taught how to read the Bible. Stories are taken out of context, are misquoted, or are totally misconstrued. Just look at TV, Film, and other popular media - there are so many misrepresentations of the Bible, that they have become common myths.

Case in Point: There were not only two of every animal in the Ark. (Genesis 7:2, 3 Take with you seven pairs—male and female—of each animal I have approved for eating and for sacrifice,s and take one pair of each of the others. Also take seven pairs of every kind of bird. There must be a male and a female in each pair to ensure that all life will survive on the earth after the flood.)

When the OT is taken in context, as seen through the eyes of a Great Controversy - these events, coupled with the failures of the men and women involved, begin to make more sense.

Ellamae · 2 months ago

Yes, we know all of this, however, the general public does not, as you say. In fact in almost every case in discussing the Bible with unbelievers the same question comes up--why was God so horrible in the OT? So maybe our efforts in spreading the good news need to answer relevant questions before getting into theology, prophecy, etc. I don't see an answer without some major changes in our evangelism. With all my knowledge I even question these OT episodes. But I have to believe that God is good, fair, love, and caring, or He does not exist or some alien force is at work that keeps life going on this planet. There is definitely ID. But most of all I have my own personal experience with Jesus that tells me He does exist and what He is like. Jews and others in the major religions are locked in their inherited boxes and few are willing to push out. I look for a God that will be fair in dealing with them.

I have a book entitled Good Book by David Plotz. He reads the Bible for the first time as an agnostic of Jewish background.

He says: I began the Bible as a hopeful, but indifferent, agnostic. I wished for a God, but I didn't really care. I leave the Bible as a hopeless and angry agnostic. I'm brokenhearted about God....After reading about the genocides, the plagues, the murders, the mass enslavements, the ruthless vengeance for minor sins (or no sin at all), and all that smiting--every bit of it directly performed, authorized or approved by God--I can only conclude that the God of the Hebrew Bible, if He existed, was awful, cruel, and capricious. He gives us moments of beauty--sublime beauty and grace! but taken as a whole, He is not a God I want to obey or love.....If I want to find grace, forgiveness, and wonder, I have to read and believe in the story of Jesus Christ, which explains and redeems all. But that doesn't work for me. I'm a
Jew. I can't believe Christ died for sins. And even if I did, I still don' t think that would wash away God's epic crimes in the OT. Jews don't have the luxury that Christians do of writing off the evil parts of the OT....I did not become a better person for reading the Bible--but I am thinking." He goes on to note that the OT heroes did challenge, argue, and negotiate with God as he now does.

As the population gets more educated and knowledgeable, the stories of the Bible seem more and more unbelievable and remote.. At the least, believers need to do a lot more explaining.

gwalter · 2 months ago

For me, personally, I found the Gospel in the OT - 20 years ago. It was an amazing experience.

Also, having had the opportunity to baptize over 60 people in the last few years, I've found most are influenced by relationship - more than they are by facts and polemics.

We are told that if the Church were to represent the love of Christ, there would be 100 baptisms where now there is just one.

steveinadelaide · 2 months ago

Hi gwalter (and Ellamae)

Have been reading your conversations with great interest. The sort of conversation you are having is analogous, I believe, to the sort of "conversation" one can have when reading a book. The writer who suggested that we shouldn't read anything other than the Bible seems to me to miss out on these challenging conversations and, hence, the opportunity for developing understanding.

gwalter: I'd be keen to hear how you discovered the gospel in the OT 20 years ago if you are willing to share!

gwalter · 1 month ago

Hey Steve! Yeah, joining the conversation - to me, that is how we have influence.

When I first became a Christian, I walked away from my friends. I didn't know how to be around them without drinking beer, swearing, chasing women, etc. It was easier (but a lot lonelier) to just stay home. It was safer - because I didn't trust myself to be around those guys.

I've found many in the church have taken this protectionist approach. It's a good place when you're a baby Christian - and I don't fault anyone from taking this stand. (Possibly, this is where you are Ellamae?)

However, as I matured, and as the church matures, we need to get out of protectionist mode and into mighty army mode. We are called to be salt and light - and we can't do that if we don't join the conversation.

Jesus (In Luke 15:1-2), joined the conversation - in the taverns, brothels, etc. If I'm a part of the conversation - whether in Facebook, Twitter, here, in a book, a blog, or in a Starbucks, I believe that the God who dwells in my heart will protect me from falsehood and will shine out of my heart.

I am not afraid - like Nehemiah, I have a sword in one hand, and a brick in the other. They can kill my body, but they cannot kill my Spirit. I am not afraid to join the conversation.

gwalter · 1 month ago

Gospel in the OT?

Good question - I'll strive for brevity here.

(you can see the longer version here: http://daddytude.com/2009/05/16/hell-part-1-fal...)

Basically - I was an agnostic at best, but most likely an atheist. Mostly because I had confused God with the Church. I had given up on the Church, and hence given up on God. (I've since learned that they are not the same thing ;) )

Anyway, I considered myself well-read, but I'd never read the Bible - I thought, at the very least, I should read it as a piece of ancient literature. So, I read Genesis.

By the time I got through Genesis, I was convinced that God is my Creator and that He does love me. While I had a long way to go, I began to pray and listen for His voice. I began to keep "a" sabbath, if not "the" Sabbath. (Just any old sixth, seventh, or eighth day worked just fine - thank you very much)

I saw the love in which God treated Adam and Eve after their sin; I saw the love towards Noah, Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph. I saw the whole Great Controversy unfolding right before my eyes.

(I should mention that I tend to be a systemic/big-picture sort of person - so it is easy for me to see the systems falling into place.)

After this, I was led to read Revelation. I didn't understand it, but I did realize that there was an end to the mess that Satan started in Eden. And then, amazingly, I read Ecclesiastes. Through Solomon's writings, I saw myself. It was through Ecclesiastes that I surrendered my heart, my soul, and myself to God's will. I realized that there truly is "nothing new under the Sun." I decided to let God be God.

A couple of months later, I was baptized.

Ellamae · 2 months ago

Yes, I believe that. Making friends is so important, especially among those who aren't Christian. But there has to be a deeper motive for joining a church. I have found Jack Sequeira's writing on the sanctuary to be most helpful in telling about salvation--if only others were willing to read these things! Our little church seems so ignored by the public it's incredible. I think there has to be some sort of demonic plot behind it! At the same time some of our ideas are now being spread by others. Maybe that's it--the end time people will not belong to any one organization. I tend to think this way.

PS: I don't think I would believe in the God of the OT either, if I didn't have Jesus and the NT.